On Thursday, March 10th 2011, Kat Dixon wrote a piece discussing a group of writers and poets. Usually this would not merit much attention, but these writers and poets happen to be people I’ve actually covered in this blog, people such as Tao Lin, Steve Roggenbuck, and Poncho Peligroso. Having some familiarity with Dadaism, as it is a favorite art form of mine, I figured “Why not give Kat Dixon some attention. And, at the same time, focus more attention on the writers she disagrees with”. Why do this? Simple: I just want to see exactly how they measure up to the original Dadaists. Personally, I’m not convinced the two sets of writers have many things in common.
Dadaists were anti in nature. Anti-establishment, anti-art, they were a true collection of brothers working internationally to change our perception of art forever. Or so they tried. The fact that people still argue whether or not their creations are art, nearly a century later, is a testament to their truly great work.
These poets don’t possess the biting, often visceral, anger of the Dadaists. Dadaists were upset at the vast awfulness of their world, for good reason (World War I). Similarities may exist between the two groups but they possess dramatically different goals. Yes, re-uses of online posts are abundant in their work, it isn’t negative. Most of their poems may be sad or focused on the self, but they aren’t anti. Rather than have these works as a specific arguments or a rebellion, their work is more a celebration. Dada wanted to destroy institutions. What this group wants to do is change the way people approach and interact with poetry. Being against poetry institutions and creating your own isn’t the same as being against everything.
Honestly, I enjoy both Dadaism and the work of these young poets but their work doesn’t really correspond well to each other. I’m not sure why this was offered as a point of comparison. In her opening, she even shows how controversial the Dada movement was by quoting her art teacher’s question “Is it art?” Using Kurt Schwitters’ poetry, she then shows how Dadaism exhausted itself but influenced Surrealism. Personally, I see Surrealism as an evolution from the younger, brasher impulses of the youthfulness of Dada into something more positive and romantic. Surrealism to Kat Dixon appears to be a more proper art form than Dadaism, which she seems to believe is a ‘plague’.
Kat’s definition of the Neo-Dadaists is a bit off as well. Tao Lin appears to be to the Neo-Dadaists what Tristan Tzara (Romanian émigré) was to the Dadaists. She calls their work primitive, irrational, and over-dependent on shallow introspection. Yeah, what the hell? Poetry should be purely rational. I don’t understand that part of her argument to be honest, and she never exactly explains what she means by irrational. Focusing on the self is the exact opposite of what the Dadaists did, the Dadaist reacted against things. They didn’t explain their emotions, even if they had them. Neo-Dadaism already applies to multiple art movements from the 1960s, such as the Fluxus art movement, so I’m not sure how this group fits into that definition anyway.
Anonymity appears to be another sticking point she has with these young group of poets. Regarding this, I might not be the best person to discuss openness regarding the internet, as I write as a sloth, but I disagree on this point as well. Nearly all of the writers infuse a lot of their writing with their personalities, perhaps more so than the average poets. They write under their own names, as opposed to some false identity. Whenever you go to Steve Roggenbuck’s or Poncho Peligroso’s websites, you see countless images of their pictures in various degrees of shock/apathy.
“Neutral facial expression” gets a mention in here, so I’m happy that she’s clearly done her research, either that or she’s absolutely sick with getting confronted by it. Her reference to the poets being emo kids who didn’t grow up at all feels a bit harsh. Considering how later in comments she accuses some of the poets of being personally affronted, it feels a bit hypocritical considering her more personal than objective criticism. This might be the worst part of her article to me and felt oddly petty to simply state “Oh they never grew up, poor emo kids. Guess they’re going to cry about it”.
Besides, emotional detachment isn’t exactly a hallmark of emo kids, usually the opposite. Besides, I thought the emo thing had sort of ended, and the emo kids grew up into hipsters. Or maybe I’m wrong. Please let me know.
Finally, she discusses Poncho’s manifesto, which I’ll republish below:
Language is language.
Words are words.
Poems are poems.
Words are language.
Poems are words.
Poetry is language.
Run wild.
Regarding this, the 2011 Poet Laureate does explain on his tumblr how he meant “All language has the potential to be poetry if we want it to”. Is this necessarily a bad thing? Discovery of new forms of expression is a good thing, as is an embrace of the ‘primitive’ vernacular language we use on the internet. Remember how John Cage stated “Everything we do is music”. Basically, it is the same idea with poetry. Whether or not you find their work to be poetry or not, they simply explore language in a more direct and forceful way than most people do. Her discussion of their work criticizes it for the simple language. Flowery or sophisticated language isn’t the hallmark of a great writer. A lot of great writers used simple language to great effect. Would Hemingway have been the same writer with an ornate approach? I doubt it.
Finally, the ending reveals her true feelings towards the movement. Kat hopes the movement will ‘yawn itself out’, a clever way of saying it will exhaust itself. Though she might not enjoy the poetry it creates, it might be the beginning of something better. All of their poetry is still new, they’ve just found themselves, to hope for a movement to just get a hint and die off is harsh. Even her not particularly beloved Dada evolved into Surrealism, an art form she clearly has warmer feelings for. Perhaps if she doesn’t like what they are doing now, who knows how their work will change. Later on it might morph into something she appreciates or enjoys.
Overall though, I’m glad she wrote this piece. I hope she continues exploring and analyzing poetry (visit her blogspot here)since she clearly enjoys it. Perhaps her next article might elaborate further on poetry she enjoys. While I might not agree with her article, she clearly did research on the poets involved. Though she didn’t like it, she did continue to give it additional coverage. By giving the internet poets attention, she inadvertently promotes them and their goals. To see an extremely spirited debate, I’d suggest reading the comments at the bottom to see various people’s reactions.
Art’s purpose is to provoke. If these poets’ work provoked Kat Dixon, whether good or bad, that means they clearly serve a purpose.
PS: I’d like to not call this group of people Neo Dadaists. Whenever a group first gets labeled, it is hard to shake a label off. Kat might not have realized this, but she may have given them a name which could stick. Since I’m not fond of this label I asked Poncho via Twitter what label he’d prefer for his literary movement.
As per Poncho:
CALL US BOYKITTENS

I'd just like to say that I labeled them neo-dadaists AND boykittens. ;)
ReplyDeleteSo long as you called them Boykittens, I am more than happy. :)
ReplyDeleteJust because language often consists of words, does not mean that words are language. Language is much more than words.
ReplyDeleteI think my main problem with the Boykittens philosophy on poetry is only that it seems like a wave of writers who will do anything to escape criticism. I think it's important to keep the notion of improvement and editing alive and well when it comes to poetry, or any medium of art, for that matter. If anything I
write
I can turn
into poetry,
and this poetry is
fine, than what's
the point of honing
my craft? Or any craft,
for that matter? This drive to expand the poetic form is not new. The Modernists started it in the early twentieth century. The Boykittens remind me of these artists more than the Dadaists.
shane, we edit our own work fastidiously
ReplyDeleteand you can call that post poetry if you want to
i'm not saying i enjoy it (i don't enjoy it)
i think it's valid to call it poetry if you want to
but just because it's poetry doesn't mean i enjoy it
i'm pretty sure steve's 15-page chapbook took over a year to write and edit
and depending on how you look at it, DOWNLOAD HELVETICA FOR FREE.COM took like four years for 100 pages with one brief poem on each
both of those books made me cry
i spent 7 months writing and editing the <10,000 words that comprise 'the romantic'
you can turn anything you want into poetry
i encourage you to do this
i encourage you to experiment
and i think it will be valid as poetry
though it still might fucking suck
but that's the point of experimentation
and though steve and i are friends/work together/frequently correspond, i think our works are extremely different
i could not write what steve writes and vice-versa
and despite our correspondence, we produce very different work
his recent work (DHFF) seems to be using flarf tones and methods through found/appropriated text and veering between 'low culture' and extremely direct earnest statements to go beyond the sense of irony and joking that people usually get from flarf and reach a kind of earnestness
my recent work is more about filling older forms (blank verse, sestinas, sonnets) with extremely contemporary vocabulary and subjects, and using these to explore hyperbolic impossible extremes of intimacy and loneliness in a world defined by online interactions
i still advocate rampant experimentation
but i don't think 'honing your craft'
should necessarily be done to outside standards
of what comprises 'your craft'
for something as subjective as poetry
i spend a lot of time honing my craft but it is pretty much entirely to the standards of what i enjoy
which means i usually care more about whether or not the act of re-reading a poem i've written still makes me laugh or cry or both than whether it adheres to meter or form
i encourage anyone reading this to actually read our poetry, as it's almost all available for free online
mine is here: http://ponchopeligroso.com/poetry/
steve's two e-books are here:
http://www.iamlikeoctoberwheniamdead.com/
http://www.downloadhelveticaforfree.com/
steve and i trade and comment on each other's works in progress fairly frequently, but our goal has never been to 'be poetic', and being told that we are 'not poetry' or 'not art' is not a critique that says much about anything we're trying to do. if your complaint is with our usage of the internet in our work, though the inclusion of its vocabulary in the text itself and the use of social media in its distribution, then we're starting from completely different places and are unlikely ever to agree on this.
i think of it like abstract painting
anybody could put paint on a canvas
and it would be valid as a painting
not everybody could paint photorealistically
for some reason this fact is taken for granted
but correspondingly, not everybody can paint abstract art,
the kind that may look at first like just 'paint on a canvas',
and produce something that is inexplicably aesthetically pleasing
or moving in a way that established and refined methods could never be
similarly it is taken for granted that not everybody could write like wordsworth
but frankly i would never want to
whereas people have looked at steve and called his work lazy and unpoetic and boring
but i have read wordsworth and felt nothing
and i have read steve's books and cried
this would not happen if we did not constantly push ourselves to experiment
so i encourage you to see the most basic and 'low' of vernacular language as potential for poetry, along with the heights of lyricism
we are poets
we are boykittenz
we <3 u all
boykittenz unite
sorry for the few redundancies in the previous post, it got deleted the first time i tried to submit it and i pasted in the chunk of it that i'd bothered to copy halfway through without totally re-reading it
ReplyDeletedid not edit it that much, ironically
wait. god damn it. i hit submit and i saw it on the page and re-read it and saw errors in it and apologized and now it's not even here. fucking christ.
ReplyDeleteblogspot can suck it.
ReplyDeleteThe comment has been wrestled back from Blogspot.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, we disagree on one point. Wordsworth rocks. But that doesn't matter.
ReplyDeleteI'm not against using the internet to promote, showcase, or inspire poetry. Again, I'm a huge fan of William Carolo Williams, (isn't everyone) Gertrude Stein, Ezra Pound, Marianne Moore... my education on the early Modernist movement inspired me to write poetry in the first place. Common language, base or vulgar vernacular; I embrace this. I don't know if you ever read the poems I sent you Poncho, but those three pieces, I think, support that claim. And I do count my post as poetry. I mean, it's shit, but it is poetry. Honestly, I don't know if we can argue anymore, because I am not sure what we would disagree on. (Other than Wordsworth, obviously)
I'm just very wary of any philosophy that promotes carelessness or amateurism, or does not recognize a potential for growth within itself.
I'd like to apologize for making the unsubstantiated claim that you, or any other member of the Boykitten movement is lazy or uninspired in their writing endeavors. Honestly man, I didn't intend to come across that way, mainly because I don't believe it.
I don't know if I had mentioned this before, but I have read Roggenbuck's chap book, and I enjoyed it immensely.
A POEEEMEMML:LL
ReplyDeleteFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUUFUCKAAAAAAAAL UUUUUUUUUUUU
<334343>?>><$$4///
A poem:
ReplyDeleteYour comment was published.
A poem:
ReplyDeletehere's a poem
ReplyDeletei don't know how to properly express gratitude
everybody that i have ever become close with tells me their suicidal thoughts
my parents raised, no, trained an empathetic sociopath
uh
and every time i get even a speck of caring from any other human i lose control
every book of poetry i've written started off as a failed novel attempt/experiment. in the beginning i was too high and now i just get tired and like how i can just write a poem in an hour and be done with it.
ReplyDelete@Syreearmwellion,
ReplyDeleteHow have you been? I like your poetry. Are you still writing new ones?
pretty good. um. i got another poetry book done last december but besides that... only the newest three on my blog. just chippin on the novels.
ReplyDeleteany music recommendations? i've been keeping up on your blog but you don't seem to have bowled over by anything you've reviewed.
i also got 'northern songs' and that ja prawn record and love those.
my goal with my poetry is to make it something i love a lot
ReplyDeletesomething fun
and meaningful for me
the more i revise and improve at craft, the more i will be able to make my poetry into something that i love a lot
so that is how my understanding of poetry encourages growth and improvement over time Love u
@Syreearmwellion,
ReplyDeleteNovels are pretty tough. Regarding the music, yeah, I guess there haven't been any new bands I've gone wild over. Hopefully that will change.
@Steve,
Agreed. I look forward to your future endeavors and like your 'free publishing' idea. That is just what boykittens do.